Throttle problem in new frame (NFE Silverware, E011 frame) - PID tuning?

I recently got some E011 frames based on recommendations that they have very low prop wash and smooth handling. So i moved my Whoop Lite FC with NFE Silverware and the XT-Xinte 17500kv 716 motors/gemfan props from my lowrider build to the new frame (cut the rear screw mount so it doesnt touch the FC). I added a canopy since i didnt want to mess with the cable tie stuff just now.
Plugged it in and gave it some throttle and immediately it flew straight into the ceiling. Once it takes off, throttle goes to max, and wont go down. When i turn off IDLE_UP (i have it disabled for level and horizon mode), throttle is almost normal, except when lower the throttle, power is cut almost completely.

So I put the FC/Motors back in the BetaFPV frame, and everything flies normally again. Something specific to that E011 frame…

Next i put the BetaFPV Lite FC V2.0 and BetaFPV motors into the E011 frame. Same throttle issue at the start, but after two ceiling whacks, when the battery drops a little, the throttle becomes almost controllable. Hover is at 5% throttle, 0% throttle slowly descends. Unfortunately 6-100% throttle is only a little more than 5%, it climbs, but not that quickly

I figure Something is causing the idle_up processing to go out of whack. Do the PIDs need changing or something? Has anyone seen this issue before? Two FCs, nothing changed except the frame.

OK i have no idea whats going on. Tried it out again this morning, and it flies fine. In fact the recommendations of this frame were correct, totally smooth flying and somehow more control than the Betafpv frame. I can now complete laps around my 8ft x 15ft spare room, through 20" race gates in Acro mode. Thats not to say i am racing with sick control but that i can fly nice and smooth at low speeds without getting stuck in prop wash. The Betafpv frame feels like running on ice in comparison.

Will need to see if that weird throttle behaviour comes back, but maybe my quad just needed some sleep, it was 1:30am when i was doing those tests

Don’t know about throttle problem, but smooth flying is partially result of angled struts - if you use props-in and E011 frame, it will fly better than betafpv because E011 has angled struts in a way that it makes better aerodynamics for props-in while betafpv has non-angled struts which should work OK for both props-in and props-out configuration but not better :slight_smile:

Hmm i still have this as props-out. Maybe i should try reversing things to see if its even more stable? Well, right now i am happy with how it flies so perhaps i shouldnt change anything just yet (also a bit scared to pull it apart again lest the throttle problem comes back)

The throttle issue is caused by noise from motors/vibrations going to the gyro. In most instances your need to eliminate the vibrations by soft mounting the FC/motors, increasing the filters and/or losing the PIDs. Looks like your FC has settled and is secure so looks to be fine. It may come back of you have have a really bad crash and dislodge it from is current position.

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Losing the pids, you mean lowering? In what way? Just hope it doesnt happen while i am outside because this thing shot up like a rocket haha.

I have to say, Silverware is quite sensitive to that stuff isnt it - the first DIY i built had vibrating oscillations due to not softmounting the FC

Yeah sorry, Lowering. Typing on my mobile. I don’t pay as much attention to predictive text as I should do.

It may happen outside to be honest, there you’ll be dealing with wind and other factors. It can overwhelm the gyro and cause the “fly-away”. Just be prepared to cut throttle ASAP on first go outside.

I’m not sure if it’s generally Silverware or so much the gyro sensitivity. I generally soft mount by brushless builds to eliminate as much vibration as I can but find that with whoops I make sure the FC is as tight as possible to the frame and have the props be in good condition

I think it actually depends on quality of components on boards - I have some betafpv lite v1.1 boards that goes completely crazy when I put them on the same E011 frame, and other one (completely the same - v1.1., everything looks the same…) are perfectly fine…

That’s not necessarily quality but any previous shocks to the gyro. Usage of gyro degrades over time as it takes crashes etc

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thanks, I will keep it in mind. I flew a few packs today and it seems to be good. It has totally transformed the beta65s lite, it is now a docile little thing that is much more manoeuvrable.
But I have lost power for sure, climbing is slower and I am at higher throttle for cruising. I only got 2:30 before I dipped below 3.1v, normally I wouldn’t see that until 3:30 or more. Not sure if the frame is the cause or if the pigtail needs replacing. But I can now fly race gates in my tiny spare room in acro mode on this whoop, something that was impossible with the previous frame

Can be my case… I always thought it is well protected - but my flying (crashing) style can’t spare any parts :upside_down_face:

Regarding pigtail - use only PH2.0 with solid pins. The one with folded pins that usually comes with betafpv lite boards are usually worn out after some connecting/disconnecting cycles (much faster than with solid pins). I could not believe the difference when I put solid pin connector…

Thanks yeah I have solid pins on my other machines but kept the stock connector on the beta65s lite. In fact I didn’t want to change anything on it at first. But now I have changed the canopy (nbd goober canopy), frame (E011), and looking to change the camera since their “1/3” sensor is terrible at night

So by increasing the filters, you mean the first and second pass, both currently at 90hz, to something like 200 or more?

I tried changing the pigtail, changing motors, different mounting (more, less damping) and in all cases it just lacks the throttle responsiveness it used to have. Cut the throttle and it slowly lowers, punch it and it goes up kinda slow

The other way, increasing means to go down in the Hz range, so like 80hz. More filters means more latency though. I would look at D term filters and look at lowering the PIDs. If you punch and chop the throttle and it fails to come down, it’s noise or PIDs are too high. Vibrations can kill punch also so could explain your lack of power.

NFE PIDs are pushing the limits so if you’re using something slightly different to what NFE tuned the quads to you may have different results.

I think silverAG mentioned the struts on the frame itself, just double check that your props are running the correct way to account for the angle of the struts

OK so i changed from #beta_filtering to #strong_filtering (since that was just 10hz lower than the beta_filtering), and lo and behold, back came the power. And the responsiveness.

Indeed i am running props-out on this, i suspect the E011 frame is props-in by default.

While looking things over last night i spotted that both rear motors had a very noticeable bend in the shaft. I suppose that accounts for the vibrations. Perhaps i bent them while swapping from the BetaFPV frame to this one. But now with the strong filtering enabled it flies very nicely. Back to hitting those gates in my tiny room, and back to 4 minute flight times. I have new motors on the way (the spares i had are being used in my Whoop Lite lowrider), but for now i will keep it as is.

I need to watch more tutorials on what effect each of the PID settings have…

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E011 frame is designed for props-in and best effect while flying with it you will have with props-in configuration. Bent shafts are problem - that will cause vibrations and various problems too…
I don’t know what motors you use, but I have lot of problems with betafpv 716 motors - their shafts bends and motor caps pops off too easily. So I am using cheap 17500kv from xt-xinte. Still not a single bent shaft and all motor caps are still on :slight_smile:

Funny, the Japanese whoop guys said the same thing - Betafpv 716s are terrible and that he only uses the xt-inte motors - they last forever apparently. My lowrider whop uses those 17500kv motors and it absolutely rocks. I have two more sets on the way (and a set of the 17600kv LDARC motors) from xt-xinte. But this is the beta65s lite so yes it has the beta motors. They are still working now, but with bent shafts I guess they will rattle themselves into the rubbish bin soon.

I will put it back to props-in tonight. I dont know how much better it can be if i am already so happy with it, but its worth a try!

On another note; if you want to see something depressing, try making an excel sheet on everything you have spent on this hobby. 4 months in, and i am approaching USD$1000; all on little tiny drones. All thanks to that $10 E010 i bought back in Dec.

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Props-in has its benefits regarding yaw washouts in dives etc. But the best would be to have props orientation depending on frame and your preferences. For betafpv v4 frames it is not important because struts are flat - so you can use both ways. But for E011, B03 etc. frames, they are angled and designed for props-in - so usage of props-out on them may cause instability, prop wash, yaw washouts…

Now, I think you know this but I like to point it anyway :wink: - remember that you need to change motor positions also when you go with different orientation - otherwise you will kill brushes very quickly.

Now, regarding money, don’t remind me… this hobby is a money pit :frowning: But once you get addicted it is hard to stop :frowning: I am in all this for more than 3 years and still can’t help myself :frowning:
:slight_smile:

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Well I tried props in tonight (yes I moved the motors, not just the props!) and to be honest I can’t tell much difference, it’s still crazy stable and easy to fly. I see why people would look for these frames!

As for money, another $80, batteries, tools and some 0603 brushless motors since TarkusX said they go so well on the mobula 6 (which is still on a boat coming from Turkey I think).