Awesome! Glad you’re on board @ghostface! @eXzez recommended a 15% carbon nylon as what he felt had the best material properties for our needs even over alloy 910 - do you have any recommendations for a good nylon formula that would feel most like a commercial whoop frame?
@NotFastEnuf I would definitely try a carbon nylon mix if you can get one. I was looking into it in the beginning of the year but couldn’t source one at a reasonable price in europe yet.
NylonX is supposed to be really good tho.
Nylon by itself has few tricky aspects. First you need to dry and ideally print from a drybox (did that) - it works reasonably well that way once you got the settings tuned in.
Consistent flow, ideally without retraction and very slow print speeds (like <= 15m/s), works best but will lead to some stringing which can easily be cleaned up tho. Getting the temperature right is super critical or you will get layer delamination.
Had to go up to 275° for that reason so make sure you have an all metal hotend.
Adhesion becomes an issue when printing on glass, perfectly leveled bed and gluestick will help, also printing with a brim helps especially with quad parts. I heard about people printing on paper or wood for perfect adhesion.
Remember to also re-hydrate your nylon prints after the printing is done. The flexible properties of nylon are achieved by being very hygroscopic which leads to the need to dry before printing. So either let them rest in warm water over night or put it in near-boiling water for like 45 min.
CF mixed Nylon should help alleviate a bunch of issues with adhesion/warping and should also add some stiffness to the prints.
Currently I would assume a boss frame printed in pure nylon would not be stiff enough.
Forget about those PETG/CF mixes, it was worse than ABS for me.
If you print it at low infill/small parts it is too flexible and if you print fatter pieces it just shatters upon impact.
Only my 2 cents, maybe some of that is useful info for you
Incredibly useful information! ! Thanks. I agree with nylon not being right for the rest of the boss series - it’s only up for consideration on a whoop frame. I had not considered paper or wood for a print surface. Very interesting! Great advice on hydrating the prints after completion too. I would have thought that’d induce warping due to stresses locked between layers. I will tune in low print speeds and the right temp. Also will activate combing mode to minimize retractions but keep the stringing hidden along already printed travels. Thanks for the crash course dude!!
I have several testings done in the last two weeks to find out which surface can be used for the Nylon-CF15.
It was a long trial of try and fails,but mostly fails.
Testprinter was the Creality CR-10, heatbed temp. between 50° C and 90°C, nozzle temp. between 240°C and 260 °C.
Here are the list of fails:
buildtak (pretty surprised that it did not work)
On all the above ones was the wharping on my testframe enormously and all this surfaces can´t handle it good enough for my taste.
But keep in mind that this can differ from 3dprinter to 3dprinter and/or for the entire enviroment around the Printer. All this affect the succes or can be a responsible for a fail.
So i was only share my persanally expirience on my travel to get the best possible solution for me and my 3Dprinter.
Anyway, the good thing is that i have found my solution finaly.
The best adhesion I have achieved with sandpaper 280 followed by the classical BlueTape.
If your Printer is very exactly callibrated and the nozzle Z axis space between printbed & printhead are also right, then the print sticks very well on the bed.
Unfortunately the wharping can be so strong that the bluetape stripes lift of from the heatbed.
It works sometimes but not everytime so it´s always a challange with unknown result.
Next test goes to the sandpaper with different granulation between 180 and 1000.
After my first testing on 600 sandpaper i was surprized how good the nylonCF15 Carbon stick on it.
The downside of this was it pastet to much and the sandpaper tear of together with the print.
To regulate the liability i reduce the granulating step by step and have stopped at 280 so far.
On this granulation it works very well for me but provided that the space between nozzle and printbed is quiet perfekt. After cooling down the heatbed you can carefully loosen the printing without tearing of the sandpaper.
The easiest way to stick the sandpaper on your printer bed is double sided duct tape.
I recommend that you paste the entire Sandpaper sheet on the backside with the duct tape and then paste both to the printbed. In that way you can be sure that the wharping not lift the sandpaper.
Print settings that works fine for me are:
250°C on nozzle
50°C on heatbed
up to 50mm/s
Filament: Nylon CF-15 Carbon
I hope my little travel can be usefuel for you.
Wow! Phenomenal testing and detailed report.
I can only make one suggestion. I have found the surface of buildtak to be soluble in acetone. I had terrible luck getting abs to stick to it until I took a damp paper towel with acetone and lightly brushed the buildtak with it. After that - it seemed to create a white haze barrier layer on the surface which the print stuck to like concrete! I wonder if this would work for nylon as well. When you pull an abs print off of it - there is actually some of the haze that comes off the buildtak stuck to the bottom of the print. It’s also allowed me to drop my bed temps to 70 degrees. If i left it at 90 to 100 it would pull the buildtak off with the print. Be careful with the acetone and don’t pour it directly on the buildtak as you can eat right through its treated surface quite fast. Also don’t apply much pressure when wiping it down - you can cause it to gum up and end up with an irregular surface texture. You may not have another sheet left to try if you’ve already peeled it off - but that is where I will be starting. As far as sandpaper goes - seek out wet/dry sandpaper from an auto body repair shop. That sandpaper has a grit configuration that is most likely to not pull off the paper. I will try that if acetone treated buildtak doesn’t work. If i stay focused, my dry box will be done this weekend and I can order up my nylon.
Thanks again for the detailed report and participation! If you feel like you are ready - I can try to finalize the nylon whoop design for you to print @eXzez
@eXzez for ABS on glass I have pretty much perfect results with spraying the hairspray on a piece of clothing and then wiping the glass with it - repeating that 2-3 times.
For nylon on glass I had to use lots of gluestick to make it stick but yes warping is very quick to happen especially as you have to print nylon pretty slow which makes for long print times, I will give sandpaper a try tho so thank you for your detailed report.
Sadly the nylon cf-15 is currently sold out at your link, I’ll try to get it somewhere else.
Did you do any tests/can you comment on the flexibility/rigidity/strength properties compared to regular nylon and abs?
That sounds interessting,
have a not so good used buildtec lying around here for testing.
Only thing is i have to buy some Aceton.
Thx for this infos, good to know for further tests.
In my case i have used dry sandpaper with good results.
Would be nice to print your nylon Whoop if you done it !
I did not printing ABS until now but these tips would be nice to know if i take a look at them.
With my older Prusa I3 it was not possible to get the print temp. out of it thats needed for ABS.
In this case i have never tried it for now.
I have tested the Taulman alloy910 that is very flexible and nearly undestructable, but on other hand the bad rigidity makes it very difficult to get enough strength to the whole frame. Less material e.g. low infill and low wall shells force this effect too. I personally think for framedesigns it is only limited usable.
The CF15 Nylon makes a much better impression, its a lot stiffer then the 910er nylon but flexible enough to damp impacts without cracking. You can bend it to 90° and can take it back without to much loose of ridigity. The mass is minimal higher compared to PLA.
Overall this composit material is the better compromise then pure nylon in my opinion.
Yes, the Printing setup isn´t easy and can be a challange but if it succeeds, it is an exceptional material for printing realy durable frames i mean.
Ok NotFastEnuf, im still waiting on motors and props , but i went ahead and played with a canopy for the boss frame, so heres some pocs untill the actual build.
Ohhh and again thank you for the firmware flash and the frame.
Looks sweet … glow in the dark is sick! Before I got into printed dip, I tried the paint technique you used and my results looked no where near as good. Well done!
F4 Alien NFE Whoop in PETG, Not as light as it could be, these purple motors are a gram heavier than others but suit the build, and I decided to add a frame brace, But Still flies nice,
That frame brace is a fantastic idea! All of my failure issues in the abs frame come from the motor hanging so low below the motor mounts and acting like a lever to break the subframe arms. That’s an inspired addition to the design!
Updates in mm my shop: the final parts for the drybox printed lat night and the printer area is completely enclosed now. Time to shop some nylon options pending final assembly!
The enclosure is more for abs. Anything I print taller than 30 mm or so likes to crack. The draft shield option in cura helps me get past that usually but now with temps dropping in the garage - it may not be enough. I may still need to add an incandescent light as a heat source. Printing is such a nice addition to the hobby but I warn anyone thinking of getting into it that it will reduce your hobby time in half as its a whole other hobby of its own.
Cheers NFE, The brace adds an extra 1/2 gram, but makes for a good stiff frame and also makes securing the battery easier. I also reprinted the Boss 7 in Red PETG. I tried printing one in ABS but it warped and was no where near as tough as the PETG.
So after a few flights with my 7x16 Boss clone I’m loving it. The power is really good, and the flight time is more or less the same as a tiny whoop setup with the same motors.
I guess I have to test some other motor curves as I get a bumpy ride at low throttle (especially hovering when battery is full, disappears when hitting the throttle or when the battery lowers).
Thank you @NotFastEnuf! great build.
I’m currently working on a similar design but based on Scisky boards, as they are currently dead cheap on BG.
Excellent design! I do like the way a scisky flies.
@Thierry - I posted another tune up by the boss 6 stl files … check out the acro only version in that one. I haven’t tried it on a 7mm yet but it’s flying pretty good on the 6mm. There are some major changes I made back towards my original setup … hardware i2c, different filters - I feel like it runs a bit smoother. Pids shouldn’t be too far out.
@NotFastEnuf - I am very interested in the whoop frame for 7mm and 8mm motors. Let me know if you need any help bashing these - I consider myself a professional drone crasher
Ok she is built only got a minute or two flight in its been raining this evening, i need to adjust rates and still go into beta flight and fine tune, no fpv yet that will be put on tomm.
So initial thoughts well quiet and fast pretty punchy, it will be interesting to get out there and push it hard…again thank you Travis.
I can kill an abs whoop frame faster than I can kill a 150 mah battery. Lol. Not even worth testing. I’ll keep you posted when I find a better replacement material. Maybe nylon, maybe petg, maybe carbon infused something…
Right now we’ve learned the lower profile ducts hugely increase performance … we just gotta find the right material
@mike-heli great job man … thanks for sharing! Can’t wait to see some fpv video! We’ll help you get a good tune locked in!
Couple more minor pieces to print… some spacers between the rolls… but it’s basically enclosed and dry boxed now. Tonight I shop for nylon and petg, and an incandescent light fixture to use as a heat source. Should have all my bases covered regardless of the type of filament now20171117_180441|666x500
Ordered up 5lbs of color change silica desiccant, a roll of red petg, a small pack of .065 trimmer line (yes… trimmer line), and another camera to get a new boss build going. I’ve been curious to get hands on petg for its excellent layer adhesion and I figured the nylon trimmer line would be a cheap way to get a baseline on the properties of nylon 6. That way I have something to compare to for taulman 910.
Hmm… probably ought to get a smoke detector too while I’m at it. Ha!