NotFastEnuf "Boss Series" Brushed Frames - 3D Printable (v2 stl files post #368)


#121

@Brainstorm - there are three fc versions for each size class of frame. The e011 stock components would do wonderfully in either the e011 version of the boss 7 (2.5g) or boss 7xl (4.5g). You need only add bigger props and flash the fc with silverware. The Boss 7 is smaller and still strong enough to take a beating. My video in post #98 is stock components plus bigger props. The xl is just bigger/tougher. The nano qx fc won’t fit any of them. The indy fc will fit all of them - just select the INDY mount pattern.

@Brainstorm you may appreciate a size comparison of the boss 7 running 50 mm props with a whoop. Much smaller footprint than the 90 mm frame


#122

If you’re printing already … just go for it in pla. You may replace a few frames but so be it! Don’t waste time on the whoop frame - but pour it to it on the others! No reason not to!
In fact if you want to - I’ll do one In pla too and build it out - we can see who breaks it first! We might both be surprised! Which one catches your eye?


#123

Easy, easy, @NotFastEnuf , i’m a beginner. Liked to take that competition but that would not be fair play for my frames - they had to take like 1000 crashes where yours only took 2 :wink:
And all material i have is beecore and 0615 motors…


#124

Lol. No worries man. For what it’s worth I average about 3 crashes per pack, and 10 packs a day. So that means over 200 walks of shame every week and close to 1000 a month. You can’t get better fast without a few :wink:


#125

Thx for your offer. We should get in contact via pm. Always good to meet someone from Germany here so we can trade quad shit.


#126

Hey @NotFastEnuf I’ve been following this one on RCGroups, may or may not be useful for your project:

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showpost.php?p=38623438&postcount=92

This guy apparently makes (sources?) a unique filament to make his frame. I’ve just linked one post where he does a fairly brutal test for durability but check out the thread for more. His design is pretty rad too.


#127

Well I am no jedi…
Popped 5 caps tonight flying the boss 7 in the garage testing tunes. Granted I made it through about 30 packs first but when disaster struck - it was bad. Time to order some more 716’s. Still havnt found the perfect tune for this thing. Either its soft and cant take wind ( today was really windy) or its got a mid throttle oscillation I cant chase out. I may have to dig deeper in the code and go back to some old tricks from my first version of e011 silverware. It had a wider tuning envelope but just lacks some of the new features. Time to shove those new features into the old code while I wait on more motors. In the mean time … its back to a boss 6


#128

@NotFastEnuf I can’t seem to get the tune on my ductless 716 e011 build either. Having said that I’m not very good at tuning so it is likely me just not knowing what to do but just seems harder than when I got my first silverware 6mm build. I’m now using your code that you posted NFE on my ductless 6mm and love it even more!

I can get the 716 flyable on gw008 props but it undestably lacks power. When I try my X9 props it highlights that my tune is bad or the props are just unbalanced. Still seems to be lacking power but maybe that is unlocked when the tune is correct :S

Either way keep us posted NFE!


#129

Will do. The mid throttle oscillations I was getting were very minor - other than that I had full power and it behaved perfectly. Only problem is I have no idea which configuration it was that got me there - I tried over 40 last night. I’ll have new motors in abut a week. Worst case I’ll try to restore that last tune…
Best case I get the old version of silverware working better. Maybe h8mini props will be the solution too. We will get there my friend.


#130

@mmaattuu - here is the trick for tuning silverware. It’s a balance of latency vs noise. As a rule of thumb I’ve determined from many different brushed builds, P values in the teens (roll/pitch) start to fly well but are still not strong enough to behave in high wind. P values in the 20’s keep it on track even in high wind and high g manuvers. P gain is that very heart of what keeps the craft where it’s supposed to be at all times. Now - you need enough D gain to smooth out the oscillations that p generates when it’s coming to a stop on an axial movement after either a stick input or an environmental correction.
Simple so far right… now here is where it gets tricky:
Latency … latency comes from filters. The less latency (filtering at higher values) - the more in sync the p response is and therefore the higher you can raise p gain. But the gyro signal you are basing P and D activity on becomes noisier. Excessive latency will always show as a mid throttle oscillation that can not be calmed by D gain no matter what. The higher you push P, the lower you have to push filtering to keep this mid throttle oscillation subdued. Motor curves can also cause a mid throttle oscillation so it gets tricky to know which one is the root cause - requires some process of elimination testing. The best filter combo I have found to get the highest p gains has always been the hardware filter at setting 0 and to manipulate software filtering. In the old version it was a second order filter at 43 kHz. In the new version, the 2st filter is the best soft filter to match hardware 0 - and it is adjustable and you can set whatever value you want it to filter at. Somewhere between 70 and 120 seems to be the range of more to less filtering. In the new version, second order 43 no longer works well - which tells me something is running alot differently in the code - slower.
Now noise: noise is a result of less filtering and is amplified by D gain. Noise will present as an inability for the motors to quickly change speed from full throttle to idle. A small punch followed by a tendency to keep increasing in altitude a bit and then a very slow decent is an indication of noise. Pushed further into more noise and less filtering - full throttle is lacking power and decent at zero throttle can be non existing. When I find p and D values I like that make the craft behave - this is where I start to try to make smaller tweaks to filtering, p, and d and end up chasing either that slow off throttle decent or the mid throttle oscillation. Anyway - the old code may be the answer. I’ll keep testing on 6mm to see and keep you posted. If you have the patience to flash hundreds of times over and over - the stuff above will start to become clear to you and you will instantly recognize each symptom and it’s cause. Maybe that will help

When you tune with the new code:
If you increase P - always ask yourself if latency from filtering is causing a mid throttle oscillation. If it does - move the soft 2st filter up higher for lower latency.
Then check your response to chopping throttle after a small punch. Is it coming down properly? If not reduce D (maybe even reduce p a little to keep a balance) or increase filtering.
It’s a balance


#131

Thanks, @CRayTech. I wonder how it would fly with stock E011 FC, i.e. without flashing it to Silverware. This would be to make quads for my kids and friends’ kids, who don’t fly acro and still rely heavily on self-leveling.

Thanks for the detailed rundown, @NotFastEnuf! Now things are 10x clearer in my head. :smiley:

If I wanted to avoid flashing Silverware for the time being, do you think the Boss frames would fly OK with stock firmware on E010 and E011 FC’s (6mm and 7mm sizes, respectively)? I’ve been giving away those two toy quads for kids’ birthday gifts over the past year. So there should be a ready supply of electronics amongst my kids and their friends, just begging to be transplanted to new frames. :wink:

Much appreciate the size comparison, @NotFastEnuf! With all this reading and talk on the Interwebs, it’s often hard to visualize sizes. If a picture is worth a thousand words, a size comparison pic is worth 10,000! :smiley:


#132

Cool, not sure how stock fc settings would handle the bigger props … but I am still working in the flashed tune version which has level mode. That may be the solution for you. When I get to a point I’m satisfied - I’ll post an e011 tune with each set of print files at the top. Maybe even one day have betaflight tunes there too.


#133

@NotFastEnuf if its not too much trouble for you i would really appreciate the tiny i3 version. I have been running ABS printed whoop frames without any major breakage so far, but maybe I am not flying aggressively enough :smiley:

I have some 8.5mm frames printed in nylon and they are super durable - only issue is that I needed quite a bit of material to prevent the frame from flexing too much.

And yep I print my frames myself, so if it doesn’t hold up I am only out a few cents :slight_smile:

Thanks a bunch!


#134

Ok guys - the 6mm tune is as close as I’m going to get it. Its not my usual perfection with the E011 but it flies pretty darn well on both hm830 and x9 props. I have not received my h8mini props yet to test. Gw008 props arrived and they are not up for consideration - too small. Mid throttle oscillations are gone using some of my old silverware tricks for gyro i2c but there is still a little more oscillation than I would like in really hard corners. It is however tuned up high enough to fly well even in windy conditions. Both the dual mode and acro only projects are in there. I do feel like acro only has a little bit of an edge as far as smoothness but if you need/want level mode/dual mode - you won’t be disappointed as its pretty darn close. I may still make a few minor changes so I will be sure to include the date below the file any time I update it. Downloadable link is under the Boss 6 print files in the second post of this thread. Happy flashing and let me know what you think if you use it.


#135

@NotFastEnuf Thank you for the detailed and helpful response. Much appreciated! I will try out some of your advice and some other props. Have some hm830 props arriving soon which I’m keen to test too. I think my issue was I was assuming the oscillations as too high on which as you note can be an endless task to calm with D. Either way half the fun is just learning and quite enjoy the process.

I am keen to flash my 6mm build this weekend to your updated file. I will let you know how I like it.


#136


Man I love this frame!! Thanks again @NotFastEnuf
https://youtu.be/GaXVhHUI_qM


#137

So I went ahead and printed the 6mm whoop frame anyway and put my tiny f3 in it with a custom cam mount/holder I designed. Best flying whoop frame I printed so far - love it, thanks for all your work


#138

Awesome man - I’m glad to hear that! There is really a noticeable difference in drag/wind resistance with the lower profile ducts! I’ve switched the same components back and forth and it’s night and day. I will get around to that update on the design for you. Hopefully tonight if the kids crash early.

Parts arrived today for the dry box construction to add nylon to the printing options. I am still committed to getting us a whoop design that matches manufactured durability and incorporates the performance advancements of the boss design as well as gets us below the 3g mark.

I think part of the issue with an abs whoop frame is that the motor hangs totally below the subframe. This increases the bending moment being put on the subframe and leads to early failures in crashes. It’s essentially a lever trying to break the arm on impacts. In the other boss designs… motors are mid mounted relative to the frame and it’s not an issue for durability.


#139

@ghostface - Yo man … here ya go. Tiny F3 mounts :wink:
Boss Whoop 6mm - Tiny F3.zip (505.0 KB)
Now it’s off to start assembly on that dry box so I can get us into some sweet nylon goodness! Kids are asleep early…WAHOO for hobby time!!!


#140

@NotFastEnuf Thanks a bunch! Will print asap :smile:

Looking forward to your progress with nylon, let me know if you run into problems with it as printed a lot in nylon this year :wink: